Not sure where to start . . . (long)

[raffee]

Hey kjd & KOPcaroline,

Thanks so much for your continued input! It all helps. I have gone over the whole thread a few times and that helps to get some focus on the big picture. I find it so easy to lose that when this or that problem is always presenting itself. So, kjd, I will try to keep some sense of the journey it has been -- and where it started.

I do not keep doing feeding, or any other training, when he loses focus. I tend towards integrating the obedience stuff into his daily routine. When I actually set aside time, as I am doing now with the hand feeding, I will keep it short, no more than 10 minutes, even if he is on track. I have found going longer with him is counter-productive.

KOPcaroline, don't worry (be happy, oops, sorry) . . . I do not baby him at all. I will sometimes express love or affection in a baby-like voice. But when it comes to his behavior, I try to be as consistent as possible. I can't say that I am perfect at this, but I do think I have established my expectations pretty well. He knows what he is allowed to do or not to do in virtually all aspects of his daily life. And I do not keep giving commands that I can't enforce, which are very few.

I feel lucky that I have gotten a lot of good feedback in this forum. I am a total newbie here -- although not so with dogs. I really wasn't sure what to expect, and I am very grateful that a number of you have taken the time to think about as well as post responses.

[MaxHollyNoah]

Hi raffee,

Another week started! I am glad to hear that you are keeping hand feeding your Beagle. Have you seen any difference as far as his food aggression is concerned since you started the systematic approachs to his behavioral problems?

When you see him starting to lose his focus, just throw a kibble to around his tail. He will immediately turn around to pick up the kibble and he will turn right back to you, expecting another kibble will be thrown. You will throw again, and again, and again for a few times before you end the session. Give him a hug and praise that he did well during the session.

As your session goes well and he doesn't get aggressive at you even though you have treats/kibbles in your hand, you want to try this (it might take a good couple or 3 weeks before you will feel comfortable doing this):

Hold a kibble in each of your hands and close your fists tight. Extend the both fists in front of his face. He will probably looks at your fists (not at you first) and tries to open your fists. Don't let the kibbles go until he looks at you and expresses his confusion, which is a sign of asking for your direction.

I think training dogs continues until the dog or I die. There is no perfect dog and no perfect trainer so make it simple and fun so that both you and your dog enjoy the routine.

I am curious about the tabasco cocktail

[raffee]

Hi MaxHollyNoah,

Actually, the only time he has displayed food aggression towards me or my wife is when we have tried to or taken some food (or whatever he considers food) away from him. So, when I do hand feeding, he never comes close to being aggressive. He will get very, very anxious, just crazed because he wants the food.

I can see value in trying to get him more relaxed around food . . . although as has been pointed out I think to accomplish this would take a very, very long time. I kind of doubt that this would transfer to those situations when he is aggressive. In the past, I tried to work on this by starting to take some food from his bowl. I used the collar and would started just by putting my hand near the bowl, then in the bowl, and finally taking a piece out. He would growl menacingly and I would hit the button and he would stop.

I thought I was making progress by getting to the point of taking a piece out with very little growling. However, I used the same approach for stopping his growling when I would wake him up and ask him to leave the couch. It worked great, or so I thought, until one night when he just turned around and bit my finger without any warning. And I think that was what I was setting up to happen with the food bowl. I stopped and have not resumed.

I just bought the tabasco, so will let you know what happens very soon.

[MaxHollyNoah]

Hi raffee,

OK. I see your point. He is only too obsessed with some items/spaces that he thinks his possession. That's why when you have food kibbles in your hand he only gets over-excited but he never gets aggressive to take them away from you, correct?

If my understanding is correct, it is a good idea to expose him to foods that he can not control as much as possible. In other words, instead of putting foods in his bowl, spread some kibbles on the floor and cover some of them with your hand, telling him "Leave it". He can eat the ones not covered but he shouldn't touch the ones you have your hand on. You can gradually release one kibble at a time. He should not claim those as his possession until you release them.

Just now as I was writing this, Noah who was looking at darkened outside barked at something. I told him to stop barking but he continued. I told him to go outside the room and lie down and he did. The door is still open but he should not cross the line. The other two dogs are lying down by my feet quiet. The message here is "being in our office is a priviledge. If you cannot follow the rule or cannot obey my command, your priviledge is gone."

If your beagle doesn't get off the couch when asked to, he should not have the priveledge of sleeping on the couch. Don't you think so? I am not interested in Alpha training myself and I do feed my dogs before we eat and we let them on the couch and sometimes even on the bed. But the rules here are all the decisions are made by us, not by them. Getting access to those couch/bed/office, etc. is considered as "priviledge" so our dogs don't deserve it unless they are ready to give it up once they break the rules. I think this is a good way to learn "give and take" or "cause and effect".

Of course my doggies didn't learn all these rules over night. It took us a while but the key was patience, persistence, consistancy and fairness.

[raffee]

Hey MaxHollyNoah,

Yes, your understanding is correct. It is only food in his possession that is taken away that will trigger his violence. I really like your suggestion about covered and uncovered kibble . . . that seems more pertinent to our situation.

As to the couch, I also agree completely. As soon as we found out that we had a problem, we changed the rules completely. While my wife and I were unhappy at losing the enjoyable contact with him on the couch, we forbade from being on it for awhile. Then when I felt that using the collar was the wrong thing, I was able train him to respond to the off command. Since then, he started letting him back on the couch. He has never failed to get himself off the couch right away when it is time. We also decided to not let be on the couch unless one of us is present. Once in awhile he will jump on it anyway -- I don't know if he is testing or just loses focus -- in any event, we tell him to get off and he practically jumps out of his skin getting off of there.

[raffee]

Well, it appears there is another problem with my boy wonder. We recently came into possession of a condo in the city. It is about an hour drive from our house. For now, we are planning in spending about 25% of our time there, in various chunks.

I was very concerned about how much limit setting I would have to do in the condo . . . especially because it is a loft-style unit with an open floor plan. This is our first day here and he has been adjusting remarkably well. Of course he was very anxious at first and kept pacing, but now has settled down nicely. And it has been a piece of cake to teach him where he is allowed and where he is not.

Ok, I am getting to the point . . . the unit has a metal winding staircase going up to the loft area, which will be used primarily for sleeping and not much else. I knew he might have a problem going up the stairs and sure enough, he wanted no part of them. I was kind of shocked when food would not lure him to take even one step up.

To see if the problem was his being able to see through the stairs, we taped up some towels to cover the open spaces of the first few stairs. At first he was still reluctant, but with a little coaxing and a food pellet, he finally did go up and get the kibble.

So, is there some way I might be eventually able to get him to go up? Maybe I should post this in a new thread. The problem may come when it is time to go to sleep. At home, he sleeps in his bed which is at the foot of our bed, which is upstairs. He will not want to sleep alone. And I don't want to start carrying him up and down the stairs, for a number of reasons.

I again welcome any and all suggestions . . . even though the pay sucks.

[kjd]

raffee,

I think you are correct. I'd leave this thread for the food obsession.

Since I had a dog who was afraid of all stairs, I'll start the new thread, quoting your last message.

kjd

[raffee]

Thanks, kjd. I replied to the new thread.

Update on food: We were all set with the tabasco mix, but his only poop today was when we took him out on a walk. We are headed back home tomorrow and should have an opportunity very soon to see how appetizing his poop is after it has been sprayed with that stuff.

[raffee]

Hey MaxHollyNoah,

We have been away for the last 5 days, but before we left I tried the tabasco mix. He ate the whole thing, well thing in this case being his one-lump poop, generously sprayed with tabasco, lemon juice, and water mix. He did not flinch at all! However, he then came in the house and took a long drink of water.

That is the only time I have sprayed his poop so far. Perhaps I should try again, or maybe up the tabasco concentration a little. We are also leaving again and will be away from home for about 8 days.

BTW, we have a friend who comes in and house sits while we are gone. She also has extensive experience with dogs. She has been doing this ever since we got our dog and has a good relationship with him. She does not have the same expectations we have of him, yet she will follow through with our rules pretty darn good.

I have started food training as you last suggested. He has been able to follow the rules of the "game," but it is certainly not easy for him. After he gets the "free" kibble and knows another one is available, he gets very, very excited. If he is supposed to be sitting, he will do so, but starts lifting his paws just slightly and then begins shaking and just keeps escalating his expression of tension until he is free to eat the kibble. I have done this with him about 5-6 days so far, and he has not yet managed to calm down, even to the slightest degree.

He will respect that it is not yet his kibble, well at least it is not his to eat. I am not at all sure that he understands that the kibble is not his to begin with. Ok, what I really mean is that I am pretty sure that he does think it is his possession. I would guess it could take quite awhile to break that mindset. Question: . . . do you think I should have our house/dog sitter continue this while we are gone, or is this something that only I should be doing with him?

Thanks for all the energy you have put into helping us and for your continued presence!

[MaxHollyNoah]

Hi raffee,

I am sorry but I had to gibble when I read about your dog eathing the whole thing and didn't mind the tabasco/lemon juice cocktail We lost the game!

OK, what's next? Maybe a stronger concentration or something really taste bad to dogs but still not poisoness.... How about mouthwash? It think it's worth trying

As for food rules, if your housesitter is very experienced with dogs, why don't you ask her if she feels comfortable doing that? She might have some new ideas. At this point, I would expose him to foods that don't belong to him as much as possible and control his access to the foods. Put all the remainder of food away before he loses his focus and starts acting restless. I know 5-6 days seem to be long but you need to be patient. No free kibbles!

I have a totally opposite case right now. My foster dog is too timid to come inside to eat his food. I cannot catch him so he has been sleeping outside for the last 5 days since I got him. I am telling myself to be patient but it has been very hard.

Well, let us see which one of us (you or me: your dog or my foster dog) will make progress sooner. Isn't it interesting how different each dog is?

Good luck