Not sure where to start . . . (long)

[raffee]

Well, as my post title says, I hardly know where to begin. Maybe a little background before I actually describe the problems . . . My wife and I adopted a 5 ½ year old neutered beagle from a beagle rescue group. All we knew at the time was that he had apparently grown up in one home for 5 years but for unknown reasons had been given to a family for adoption. They kept him for one month but he constantly barked and behaved aggressively towards their family’s cat. The family then brought him to the rescue group.

We knew when we got him that we had some problem areas. He responded to some basic obedience commands but was otherwise pretty undisciplined. He pulled on his leash and was extremely difficult to restrain when he saw other dogs while walking. He was obsessed with food and constantly came into kitchen and dining areas to try and get food, with or without anyone being present.

I was the primary trainer and was easily able to eliminate a good deal of the problems very early on. However, his behavior was still problematic plus he started to show some other issues of which we had not been told. For instance, his obsession with food included eating his own poop. If he was in the backyard and eating something that we wanted him not to eat, he would bark very threateningly when we approached. He has bitten me on two occasions on my hand, skin not broken, when I went to take it away. The same thing would happen if he threw up in the house or backyard, that is, he is determined to eat his own vomit.

We decided to get some professional training. We asked our vet for some recommendations. We settled on a local outfit with two trainers. They offered both individual in-home training as well as group classes. After evaluation, they strongly recommended the use of a pinch collar. Initially we said we did not want to go that route and said we would hold off. However, soon after their training started we tried it and then decided to keep it.

We made good progress through the training. I continued to bring him to classes for quite awhile after the individual training was over. By the time I stopped going to the classes, we had gotten to the point where we could take him to a nearby park and take him off-leash . . . something we had only previously dreamed about.

Ok, finally last piece of background . . . when we got him, he was fairly aloof and remained unconnected for quite some period of time, not surprising given his recent history of abandonment. But slowly and surely things began to change. At this point – he is now seven – he is extremely attached to me and somewhat so to my wife. We had actually hoped for a dog that would be equally attached to both of us. My wife is incredibly loving and giving to him and never takes out any disappointment on him. This is in keeping with her nature.

So, why am I posting this? We still have the total obsession with food. He will often get completely over-excited about wanting food, maybe after being in the backyard. He will go around and lick all of our hardwood floors as an example. The big problem is when we let him out at night to do his business and then maybe he finds something or gets a scent. He will not want to come in and will start barking incessantly. If he as actually found something or maybe has his own poop, he acts very threatening. Interestingly, if we are out walking and he happens along some poop or poops himself, I can verbally steer him away from it. So I guess there is something about his territorial nature combined with his food instinct that really ramps up his excitement. By the way, he is fed healthy, but not an excessive amount of food twice per day. Oh . . . he has killed two squirrels and one bird in the backyard and then has eaten whole all of them.

I am not able to use food as a reward in his training. As soon as it comes out, he loses focus on whatever task is at hand and just starts panting, salivating, and jumping around to get at the food. I tried teaching him to delay his food approach but I think his heightened state of arousal was not conducive to learning.

I am also concerned about his attachment to me. He basically follows me around the house when I am home, which is a good deal of the time. He will often approach me and start licking my face all over, sometimes very forcefully. He will do this as much as 10-15 times per day. He does not complain when I leave but immediately starts barking when he hears me returning and then accosts me as soon as I am in the door. He will also do this with my wife, minus the licking. He almost never licks her.

I have started limiting some of this licking. I am starting very slowly but intend to cut it back to whatever is reasonable, although I really don’t know what that might be. I know he loves me and wants to express it, but it seems like he is also expressing issues around dominance with this behavior. He definitely displays other such behavior. He will occasionally try to hump my leg or arm. He will also do this to others. From the beginning, I have regularly engaged in a lot of the alpha techniques I see are recommended here. No doubt they have helped, but apparently I need to change things in some way.

He has a very strong aversion to rolling on his back. I can only get him to do it when he is very relaxed and maybe on the couch with me. The professional trainer was sure this was a dominance issue and was convinced he could fix it. He put the dog in a position so that he would have to push back to maintain not going over. The idea being that it is the dog who decides if and when he will roll over. He said he just did this with a huge dog who “gave” in after a short time and that was the end of the problem. I told him you may be underestimating the ferociousness of our dog. Well, he was at it for over an hour and eventually it was him who had to give.

There is so much more I have left out but back to the food situation one more time. I had engaged in some of the training I often see recommended where you start feeding the dog out of your hand and then slowly put some in the bowl and so forth. No matter how much or little was in the bowl, whenever I would out my hand back into the bowl, a warning growl would appear. The trainer’s answer to this would be to use the collar to extinguish the behavior.

Well, I had done this as he recommended for when it was time to wake him up and get him off the couch to go to bed. He is really groggy and he would take his time, often lingering past when he was awake. He had taken to making the same warning growl as with the food bowl. I used the collar and gave him a light pinch when he first growled. After one or two times, the growling completely stopped. However, one time soon after, without any warning, when I woke him, he just turned around and bit my hand. I now have grave doubts about trying to eliminate warning growls. BTW, I have since trained him to respond to the off command and that problem is no more.

I know there will be some people here who will strongly object to the use of any such collar. To offer some explanation, not a defense, I would add that our dog does not in any way fear the collar. In fact, he will give a wag of his tail when we put it on. It was explained to us that the collar should not be used as aversive training and we have been very careful to try and follow that principle. We trained him to use the signal and as means of getting his attention and redirecting his behavior. I think we got way from that using the collar when he awoke on the couch and the result was not good. At this point we now only use it when we go on a walk outdoors where he will be off-leash. It is a safety just in case he follows his nose and gets in trouble.

Sorry if this rambled too much. Here is a brief summary of the major problems/issues:
1. Obsession with food, especially in the backyard. Unable to remove items safely.
2. Dominance issues, over-licking, unable to roll over. Not unrelated to food issues.

Thanks so much in advance for feedback and suggestions.

[KOPcaroline]

Hey raffee,

It does sound to me like most of your problems are rooted in a dominance miscommunication. The licking, humping, food problems, and occassional nips seem to me like a dog who does not fully see you as alpha. That being said, I read you have been doing the basic alpha dog training, and I would say to keep that up, and maybe kick your assertiveness over the dog up a little (use more forceful words, be sterner, expect more).

I'm sure some of the problems are rooted in your dogs seemingly being "abandoned" by a home of 5 years, which makes it tough. I would think these behaviours will get better with you over time, because his trust and friendship in you should only get deeper. This does mean you're going to need to keep working at it and be patient!

As far as your wife, to establish more of a bond between her and the dog, try giving her more responsibility with him. She should take him on walks by herself, she should feed him, that sort of thing. This will also help with his licking of you, if he forms a closer bond with someone else in addition to the bond he has with you.

For the licking, when it starts, immediately say "no", stand up or move so that he can't reach you anymore, and ignore him. Wait til he calms down, then sit down or get close to him again. Repeat the process if he starts licking again. You can even go so far as to hold his muzzle shut and say no, then ignore. Always wait for him to calm down before returning your attention to him. Give him verbal praise and really good pats for the times when he's not licking, just enjoying time with you.

With the poop eating, it'll take a bit of effort on your and your wife's part. When he goes outside, both of you should watch him, one with a bag, the other with a treat or favorite toy of some sort. When he goes, the one with the treat should call him and distract him, while the other collects the poop into a bag. That way there is no poop for him to eat. You can go one to try this sort of "training" so that you don't have to immediately collect the poop, just one of you go out with him and immediately distract him from his business once he's done it, then bring him back inside. If you catch him trying to eat it still, it might be a better idea for you to put him on his lead at first and walk with him in the yard til he goes, so that you can remove him from it while giving a "no" command, then go on to try without the lead.

The same sort of idea goes for when he's outside before bedtime and you say he gets stuck out there, sniffed up in something. One of you needs to go out with him and get his attention back on the house before he gets distracted. Apparently treats will get his attention, so you could start with those, and once he responds on a regular basis, cut back to just verbal praise and pats.

As far as food aggression goes, its tricky. You are feeding him after you and your wife eat, correct? Make sure he sits before you give him food, I know you said as soon as the food is in sight he goes berserk, but give the sit command, bring the food out, and if he loses it, take the food back immediately. Have his bowl up on the counter when you fill it, dont pour the food out in front of him, this makes it easier for him to see it coming, and see it being taken away again for his bad behaviour. It also makes it easier for you to avoid being bitten. Anyway, as I said, if he comes out of the sit position before you give an "ok" command for him to start eating, put his food back on the counter, have him sit again, have him stay, and walk away for a few minutes. You're going to have to keep at this, and it might take a while, but if he loves food as much as you're saying, he should catch on eventually. It's all about him not getting food until he is calm and focusing on what you are telling him. YOU decide when to feed him, he doesn't just get to plow into it as soon as its in sight.

To help with his coming into the kitchen looking for food, obviously don't leave any out. Store his bowl out of sight when he's not being fed, and keep his food somewhere where he can't really get near it, preferably in a lockable container. Don't feed him at all unless it is in his bowl, and at a meal time. Treats for training don't count, but I mean don't give him your food scraps unless you put them in his bowl and have him do his sit routine for them too.

The training you're doing with him sounds really good to me, obviously the biting is not a good thing. When he does this, its important for you to assert your dominance over him, not just stop messing with him, because that gets interpreted to him as biting = he gets his way. So next time he nips at you, get a hold of his collar or put his lead on him right away, and boot him outside for a while, or put him in his kennel if he's got one. Either way, remove him from whatever he was doing, and do so sternly. Lots of "NO" commands, and be forcible, but not physically punishing. You can always try muzzles and the like at first, if you're afraid of him inflicting real damage, but I think from what I've read they are just warning "leave me alone" nips. So if you correct them immediately and show him you and your wife (because she needs to be doing this stuff too) are in charge and won't tolerate that behaviour, he should cut it out.

I feel like I haven't given very straight forward advice on this one, mainly because everything you're doing is right in my opinion, I think it just needs more "gusto" behind it for him to get it. I hope you see improvements

[kjd]

Hi, raffee!

Your dog is very lucky that you adopted him; you seem to have the persistence and patience to lick his problems!

As someone who's dog decided poop was good, I have one suggestion. Get some meat tenderizer (not the one with onion in it, but the more expensive type), and shake it on his food. Sunna was going through periods of poop-eating, so I now add it to her food regularly. A bottle costs between 6 and 8 dollars. The cheaper kind, with onion, is between 4 and 5 dollars, but onion is supposed to be bad for dogs.

A properly fit pinch collar, and I suspect from what you've said that your trainer made sure it was, shouldn't be painful to the dog -- it should actually be safer than most of our training collars.

Good luck,
kjd

[raffee]

KOPcaroline,

Thanks so much for your feedback. I was thinking I am on the right track but I think I need to hear it from some others to make sure. And I am also sure I make mistakes, but hopefully I am not repeating those so much.

As to the food situation, we always eat before him. My wife feeds him in the AM and I feed in the PM. He will whine occasionally while we eat. We eat in the dining room, where he is not allowed. After we are done, I will get up and feed him. We try and keep things on schedule as much as possible. I could use an idea or two about that whining.

When I get ready to feed him, he has to remain in a sitting position. If he gets up, I stop what I am doing. After his bowl is ready, I give him permission to go over to his crate (he was crate-trained when we got him, which helped). I then place the bowl in his crate and he has to remain in sitting position until I give him the go ahead signal.

But now if I want to place my hand in the bowl or heaven forbid, pick it up, he will growl ferociously. Confession: my wife does not follow the same routine. For a number of reasons, including chronic illness, she is just not able to demand the same out of him and make him stick to it. Our dog does not have free reign and anything goes, but he is able to get away with more. And I don't see how that can be changed right now. She could have less responsibility but then that would be bad in lots of other ways.

And I do not think it would affect this particular issue, although I do think it plays into our overall dominance problems. But this guy is so hyper-focused on food, kind of like he is seized up, I am somewhat doubtful that much can be done. In actuality, I am less concerned about getting him to the point where he lets me pick up his food bowl than, let's say, having him drop something in the backyard if I tell him to. I don't see much of a safety issue with the food bowl. But it does occur to me that to whatever degree the two situations are related, then confronting one issue could help the other, at least I would guess so.

One thing I am not clear on . . . are you suggesting that I should have him stop all licking of me? I would be reluctant to do so, unless I got convinced that I needed to do just that. He has become so accustomed to the routine, I would think it would be quite a shock not to let him lick at all. Once he starts he wants to go on and on and on. So what I have been doing is stopping it not too long after he starts, so that I am in control of that instead of him.

I really do need to do something different when he bites. It does not occur often, but may actually become more frequent as I confront his over-possessiveness. I am thinking of using a thick pair of gloves to get at anything in the backyard. The last time it happened, I yelled at him, then of course felt terrible after. I guess I was so hurt (not physically), I just over-reacted. I need to de-personalize that behavior and perhaps act forcefully but not angrily or revengeful. I don't think I would want to put him in his crate, as I just want to have only positive associations for that space. Especially because his food and water are also there.

You have given me a number of things to think about. Hopefully I will be able to incorporate whatever advice I get here into my training and life with our dog. I absolutely love him to death. I know there are no easy fixes and it will take time, but I also know I need to change some aspects of what I am doing.

[raffee]

kjd,

Thanks also for your reply. You know . . . I tried some stuff I got online, some sort of powder that was supposed to make his poop unpalatable. Never even made a dent. I suspect it would be the same with the tenderizer, but I don't have too much to lose, so may give it a go.

And yes -- the trainer did fit the collar. We are both very careful each time it goes on him. We have never seen any sign of distress, or even discomfort. But there are some things where a collar is not the answer and I am sure that is mostly true here.

I only hope we have the patience and persistence we need. He is a very, very tough little guy when he is so motivated!

[MaxHollyNoah]

Hi raffee,

>I only hope we have the patience and persistence we need. He is a very, very tough little guy when he is so motivated!

I want to see if there is anybody more patient and persisitent than you are after I read your whole posting! Your beagle is such a lucky dog to find a home like yours!

I understand that he came with a bunch of problems and he still has some issues but when you compare him now and then, you should be proud of yourself and him as well. He has come this far!

I am afraid that he never had a chance to learn to trust his owners unfortunately. All of his misbehaviors seem to come from lack of trust of people and lack of confidence in himself. I don't think he is showing his dominance over you. He just tries to protect himself and his possessions, due to being treated disrespectfully in his past life.

Once his personality has been twisted it will take a lot of time to unwind it to become a relaxed and trustful dog. You and your wife have done a great job!

By this time, I am sure he knows where all his foods come from. That by itself works as your favor. I don't like you feeding him in his crate. If he sees his crate as his safe place, if you stick your hand in the crate, he can easily take it as an invader.

I would still use foods/treats to train him. Hungry, lonely and bored dogs are best learners. Does he hurt you when you offer him a treat? Does he try to grab it or does he know he should take it nicely. Overreacting when he bites or his teeth touches you works very well in my experience. He, and any other dogs, doesn't want to hurt you for no reason. My dogs acts so guilty when they hurt me accidently and when I scream "OUUUUCh!!".

Because he does all the "wait" "sit" commands in front of his meals, I assume he can somewhat control himself even if he is so obsessed with food. Keep working on making him learn to control himself over foods/treats, but make sure it is always fair to him. In other words, throw a ball and when he brings it to you, give him a reward/treat. When you call him from distance and he comes to you, give him a reward/treat. Offering treats throughout a day will make him think foods and treats are not such special things. When you are obsessed with something but if you get it all the time you will eventually lose your obsession. Create that situation.

As for licking, I don't think it is a sign of dominance at all. It is a sign of submission instead. He just loves you. He wants to trust you totally but his past experience doesn't allow him to do that.

One of my dogs was a stray and she only weighed 35 pounds when she was found. She is now 45 and just fit. She was a bad countersurfer when she first came to live with us. She even ate a very spicy Thai green curry left over on the counter. She did that every time we went out. Her separation anxiety made her eat whatever was there since she didn't know when she could eat next. However, over time, she has learned that she will never have to starve as long as she lives in this house. She just loves us and her home. She never escapes and she always loves to come home. This is an example but each adopted dog has some unknown experiences with which he/she has learned some lessons so it is hard and taking time for them to discard those lessons.

The best way to gain his trust is repetition. Repeat small routines and rules every day. Dogs like to have routines and when it happens at the same time everyday it makes them happy and relaxed. As Caroline suggested, I would go in the backyard with him for his business and clean it as soon as he does. Say "Let's go inside and have a treat!" and give him a treat. Let's go get a newspaper and take him along. Go back inside and tell him how much you enjoy his company and give him a treat and pat. Have him sit next to you when you watch TV and from time to time offer him a little treat for no reason but just because.

I am not so worried about your dog is not as attached to your wife as to you. It is rather unusual a dog is attached to each of family members at the same way. I love my 3 children equally but dogs see and feel things different. My dogs don't even go walk with my husband as long as I am home. When I am at work, they all enjoy walks with my husband. However, if Mama's home, they think they should stay with Mama (in fact, Mama is more fun than Dada) from their point of view!

[raffee]

MaxHollyNoah,

Ah great . . . I was kind of hoping to get another viewpoint in here. While our guy does appear to me to have dominance issues, I am quite a bit less than certain about this. I sure wish I knew more about his upbringing.

I have been thinking that he may have had a lot of isolation from other dogs. When he sees other dogs, he gets the same kind of excitement as over food, but not as intense. Then when he approaches another dog, he zooms in to his behind and starts sniffing away for as long as he is allowed. He just seems to ignore the normal communications from other dogs . . . I am not sure he had enough contact when he needed it to learn how to communicate. He shows no interest at all in playing with them . . . he takes any attempts at play as a sign of aggression and runs off. He can be easily run off by even a much smaller dog. And the woman who had him during rescue told me that one of her other rescue beagles gave him a strong correction and ended up taking a bite out of him.

Yes - he can control himself while waiting for his bowl. But when I have a treat in my hand, he has never maintained composure. That's one thing I don't think I have the patience to keep trying . . . seems completely futile.

Thanks again for a somewhat different point of view. I do see that everyone keeps emphasizing a number of the same things -- like repetition, persistence, and patience. Oh by the way, when I was trying to shape his feeding behavior, I did stop feeding him in his crate, for basically the reason you mention.

[MaxHollyNoah]

Hi raffee,

I agree with you that your dog didn't have proper socialization with people and other dogs while he was raised. It is nice though that he just runs off when the other dog tries to play with him. Noah, one of my dogs, would probably snap/bite the other dog out of fear. When dogs encounter something that he/she is not comfortable with (something that he/she can not tolerate with), they can either "fight" or "flight". My Noah is the former.

Dogs can be aggressive in many ways and I don't think it's always due to dominance. It's more likely due to lack of trust, fear, resource guarding, territorial, etc. Your dog's food aggression is maybe a mixture of those.

I would still like to you to try and give him treats. Don't hold treats in your hand. Wear a training pouch, or put them in a tin box or something next to you. Your dog knows "Wait" or "Leave it", right?

After he finishes his meal (sot that he is not so hungry anymore, I hope, tell him to sit in front of you and bring a piece of treat in front of him saying "Wait". When he looks at you in your eyes, tell him to "Take it". It is important that he looks at you. This is a game of patience! Equip yourself with a glove or anything you feel comfortable. He will be drooling but that's OK. We are now trying to make him understand that "He needs to work for it" and "We, the owner, has the authority". He is not starving since he has already eaten. You will repeat every day after his meal. I am curious how he will develop. This is like a bonus for him so he should like this session.

Let us know how it goes. Good luck.

[raffee]

Hey MaxHollyNoah,

I will try as you suggest, although I want to think about the best time to do it. He is absolutely not even close to being sated after he eats . . . we and his vet think his hunger is about the norm for the breed. I do not want to establish any kind of expected routine where he thinks he is going to get treats after he eats, or at any other time for that matter.

There was a biting incident last night. I was better prepared, almost expecting it the way things developed. He pooped very late at night while I was watching him. When I went over to him, he started his menacing growls. I had put on these fairly thick gardening gloves. Finally, when I got too close, he lunged and bit one of the fingers very hard, but let go. It hurt a bit, even through that glove.

I kept moving towards the poop and grabbed it while kind of using my body to shield him away from it. He growled some more and then turned away to go in, which is what I had wanted him to do in the first place.

I am sort of torn between trying to minimize these encounters by controlling his outdoors freedom versus letting him poop and chase whatever but establishing that all of it is subject to my letting him eat something only with my approval. Right now, I am leaning towards the latter. For a number of reasons, it will be difficult to always be with him when he is outside and I am concerned about that being too restrictive on him. I also think that he should learn that if I want to take his poop or anything else, that I am free to do so, without his being allowed to growl or bite.

Thanks again for your input, and I will post the result of the treat experiment.

[KOPcaroline]

Hey again,

What a great lot of feedback! I think your beagle will learn trust again, dogs are such loyal animals.

Just a few ticks of my 2 cents again :P I think you can allow as much licking as you like, as said above, it is a sign of affection, but when he starts to be forceful with it and not give up, it can become a dominance thing. That being said, allow as much as you're ok with as his owner (its your call!), and then be sure he knows to stop when you say to.

Feeding out of the crate is a good idea, I dont think I caught that you were feeding him in his crate the first time. Even just outside is better, as was said, crates and dog boxes become safe places, the dogs place, so feeding him out of it creates less stress if you put your hand in.

Like I said the first time, I think you're doing wondefully with him and his training, its just time you need. We're always here if you need reassurance or advice