biting

[KOPcaroline]

Hey there,

I do think his reaction to your taking charge more is expected - after all, he didnt look at you as "pack leader" before, so its a bit of a heirarchy mix up to him at the moment. You just need to keep on with it - don't let him walk over you AT ALL! Be firm, it seems a bit mean right now but it will honestly help you so much! Remember you're not trying to hurt him, but dogs in his position do respond to forcefulness - some owners have to pin their dogs down, belly up, until the dog "gives up" - it might come down to this sort of thing for you. Just remember its not a bad thing, its necessary, and plenty of people go through it. He needs your guidance after all!

Good going with the re-training and classes again, I think they will help you a lot! Dont hesitate to ask more questions, and please let us know how things go!

[MaxHollyNoah]

Hi nhh322000,

I am so glad to hear that you are enrolling him in an obedience class and atteding it with your children! That will be wonderful

I just want to make sure that those classes are using "positive reinforcement" training. In other words, encourage good behaviors by praising and giving treats. Instead of punishing bad behaviors.

They don't use any physical force or negative approach. Therefore, I don't agree with what KOPcaroline described as follows:

>some owners have to pin their dogs down, belly up, until the dog "gives up" - it might come down to this sort of thing for you.

Instead of "taking charge of him" by force, you would rather have him learn to choose to obey what you ask him to do . I don't think the reason why he is not responding is like he is challenging you to get higher position. He is simply stressed or confused. He doesn't know any better way to express himself. He has no idea why all of a sudden you (who used to be a nice mom) started acting and taking charge.

Instead, I would try to mend once-broken relationship with him. It doesn't mean to spoil or indulge him but introduce him boundaries and rules slowly in a positive manner.

For example, you said he would snap your hand when you grab his collar (when someone at the door). I think that is his way of telling you that he does not get grabbed by the collar. Instead, call his name to catch his attention. When he looks at you, tell him "Sit", "Good boy!" followed by a treat. Then, I would lead him to another room using a treat in a friendly voice "Come over here" and give him a praise and treat and close the door to answer the front door. This way, you are not giving him a chance to do a bad behavior (snapping). All he is getting is a praise and treats.

By doing this kind of approach, your dog will look at you as someone he can trust and he wants to listen to.

Eventually, you might want to introduce "grabbing his collar" game, which is giving him a warning before grabbing his collar. Stand in front of him and say "Got ya!" and touch his collar, and treat! By doing this, he will associate that being grabbed by his collar is a good thing, at least nothing to threaten him.

I know it sounds like it will take a long time but remember, what is the most important thing between you and your dog. It is trust Dogs don't perform anything if they are skeptical about you or afaid of you.

I personally don't like Cesar Millan's way of training. Maybe HE can do it successfully, but it's not for you and me.

[nhh322000]

Hey Guys me again!
Spent the afternoon in tears and re evaluating what to do with the dog once again
He bit someone again today and I'm feeling a total failure. I really feel like I'm letting my dog down but I'm trying so hard to train him and on the surface it seems to be working.
He will sit for as long as I ask him to for his food, he wont wlk in front of me on his leash or in the house.
Yet when he gets out the front he runs around and cant even be coaxed in with treats.
This is what happened today. My son attends a club which is in the middle of no where so I took my dog for a long run in the woods as I know how important it is for him to have a free run.
All was fine until I went to put him back on his lead, he waited for me to so it and i slipped he then ran up towards the road and then just started running around.
Some of the club membore got treats and he ran up tail wagging but when the man grabbed his color he started rolling round on to his back he still hadnt bitten him but as soon as I came near him te get him from the man he bit him.
I was mortified and increadably upset as the whole situation was my fault.
The man in question thought the whole thing was normal!!! He said he has had much worse bites from his own dog!!!!!!
Needless to say I am now back to square one and have someone comming round at the weekend to look at the dog and maybe take him.
Him being re homed or worse put down is so upsetting to us all we are desperate for help............

[MaxHollyNoah]

Hi nhh322000,

I am so sorry to hear the episode today. I can feel how upset and discouraged you have been since it could have prevented as you know.

First of all, did your dog break the skin of the man? How bad was the bite?
If it didn't break the skin and it just gave him a bruise, there is still good hope so don't be desparate. If the man needed to get stitches then I would think a professional trainer needs to get involved in my opinion.

I wasn't around to see it with my own eyes and ears so I only have to guess why it happened but I think your dog was as terrified as you were.

>Some of the club membore got treats and he ran up tail wagging but when the man grabbed his color he started rolling round on to his back he still hadnt bitten him but as soon as I came near him te get him from the man he bit him.

I think your dog was submissive to the man since he rolled on his back when the man grabbed his color. He bit the man when you aproached to him shows that he tried to escape from the situation.

I wonder what happened after he bit the man. Did the man keep grabbing his collar and gave the dog back to you? How did the dog behave then? Did he realize right away that he did something wrong, or did he kept trying to get away by lunging or biting more?

Also, how did you treat your dog after he bit the man? Did you scold him right there? If you did, do you think he realized that he did something terribly wrong?

As you can see in this forum, there are a lot of dogs that bite their owners or other people, due to fear and distrust, or just to want his own way. I am not sure but I don't think your dog bit the man out of fear because he came to the man to get treats and he showed him his submission. Maybe he just tries to get away from the situation just because he didn't want the fun time and his freedom is getting over once he got leashed by you???

I think the approach to correct biting behavior is different between "out of fear" and "getting his own way". Everybody must have been chaotic at the time trying to catch him so it is possible that he did it because of both reasons.

>Needless to say I am now back to square one and have someone comming round at the weekend to look at the dog and maybe take him.
Him being re homed or worse put down is so upsetting to us all we are desperate for help............

Anyway, if you think he is out of your hand, it can be a good thing to find him a strong owner, rather than he gets put down after some more serious bitings in the future.

Let us know what you think how it happened and how bad the biting was. You might think it is so terrible since it was your own dog and it did happen just in front of your eyes and you became so emotional. However, it might not so serious after all. Do never let him put down. He can be either re-homed or retrained.

[nhh322000]

Thanks I really needed to hear that because I cant even think of putting him down without tears streaming down my face.

It was a case I think of him feeling very scared and cornered as several people were round him, he did break the skin but it wasnt a bad bite at all, and that is according to the man he bit! who also keeps dogs who have in the past bitten him.

I did scold him and he dropped to his belly he really really knew how upset/angry/dissapointed I was with him because he then trotted along by my side with his head down and tail down.

On the way home he kept putting his head down when I looked at him but I was so upset it could have been that.
It really seems fearful as you can see how scared he is.

The first person he ever really bit was the vet, he had always been fine with the vets until he hit a year old.
I took him in for a routine check and he ran to the vet tail wagging and walked happily into the room. the vet continued to pet him in there then the dog suddenly hid behind me when this guy got his stethescope out. he pushed pased me to look at the dog and the dog bit him. The dog was shaking and ever since then he is very scared when he feels cornered.

After that my partner left things just got worse and you know the rest.

A lot of his behaviour seems like play rather than challenging us like when he gets out the front he runs round and round and the more we try to tempt him in or catch him the more he runs, if you approach he drops on his front paws bum in the air.

The only reason I am even concidering rehoming him is the reservations I have about him ever being able to be trained with my son controdicting everything I do and like you say I just dont feel I have the tools/ability to handle him, and I really want him to live a long healthy happy life.

My fear about rehoming him comes from one of the proffesionals I saw who told me a dog always pines for its owner and is always waiting to see you again.
Given how intelligent my dog is, it is breaking my heart to think he will pine for me as much as I will be pining for him,
I am with him 24/7 and I cant begin to describe the hole he will leave in my heart.
But I want him to be balenced and healthy and if someone else can give him that then its best for him.

[MaxHollyNoah]

Hi nhh322000,

I am relieved to hear that the biting was in fact too bad.

As you learned from this hard lesson, if you want to keep your dog:

1) Don't let him run loose if you cannot control your dog
2) When he escapes, don't try to chase him since he would think it's a fun game. Instead, run in the opposite direction with a happy, inviting voice calling his name
3) Do obedience training
4) Keep socializing him with new people
5) Be firm and consistant with the rules and boundaries
6) Provide him plenty of daily exercise (both mental and physical)
7) Take him to the vet even when he doesn't need to and have him meet the vet just to say hello and get a treat (I take all my 3 dogs even only one needs to see the vet ~ I always give them treats to be good dogs and they LOVE vet visits even though each had bad experiences such as getting neutered, getting stitches, etc.)

And the list can get longer and longer because there is such thing like "Enough" or "End of it", same as parenthood of human kids. However, it is really rewarding when your dog gets over each issue as a result of cooperated efforts between you and him.

On the other hand, let me reassure you that rehoming him is not as bad as you are worried of. Provided you find a suitable home for him. I didn't realize this until I got involved in fostering/adopting out shelter dogs.

I truelly belive that dogs can be happier when they find more suitable owners. Of course they will pine for their original owner for a while but they will get over it rather quickly, provided the new owner gives them a lot of love, attention, care, and most of all understanding their needs.

I have fostered 3 dozens dogs in the last 3 years. They all got attached to me rather quickly, except for a couple of dogs that were really mistreated before. I know they all miss me when they go to their new forever home. I keep in touch with most of the new owners at least for a few months, sometimes years. I get to see them from time to time, sometimes after one year. They still remember me as "their first person they trusted after being abandoned" and are happy to see me, but their "person" is no longer me... They have well adjusted to their new home and being happy

So, in case you have to rehome him, make sure you will find a person/family you can trust and who are willing to keep in touch with you. You are not getting rid of him but you are doing this for him. He has 10-12 more years to enjoy his life as a part of his family. If you think you are not the one, then find the one for him might be the best for him although it is so heartbreaking for you.

I would start with Weimeraner rescue groups since they are really dedicated to find perfect homes for the breed. I got my 2 border collie mixes from a Border Collie Rescue Group in Pacific Northwest. You can just call them up and consult with them.

Either way, I wish you and your dog the best.

[KOPcaroline]

Hey guys,

Sorry, have been out of town camping this past week, so no internet access. Didnt mean to ditch in the middle of problems!

Sorry too, to hear about the set back, but as MHN said, it could have been a lot worse. I definitely think it was done out of fear, with the showing of submission. It makes sense too, if the man grabbed him by the collar suddenly, even though it wasn't threatening, obviously your dog has some confidence/trust issues that need slow working through. So yes, its not a good thing to happen, but as its been said above, it doesnt mean its the end of the road for your relationship with your dog. It can be worked through!

I really can't add much at all to what MHN has said - its all exactly what I would say. Take your dog to the vet just for a visit and treat, don't let him off lead around other until you can control him, don't chase after him in the yard - either do what MHN suggested, or ignore him completely until he comes back to you, then give him a lot of happy pats and praise :P Obedience courses would help a lot, I think, as would slow, calm introductions to people when you get the chance.

For example, when you ran into a group of other members with your dog, it might have made him more comfortable to stay on lead, and slow approach the group. When he stopped, you stopped, and then you might ask a member to slowly say hello, crouch down to his level, and wait for him to keep approaching. You don't want your dog to feel cornered or advanced on, so try to let him do the approaching if possible. Then the other person could offer a hand and a friendly pat, all the while the two of you speaking in calm tones. This sort of introduction to new people often works well for anxious dogs, so it might be worth giving a go in the future.

Im sending nothing but good luck your way, I'm sure we can get through this!