This dog is an aggressive mess, but I want to save him.

[Cgregoli]

Hi Caroline and MHN:

I really appreciate your weighing in on the upcoming changes in Petey's life. I agree with you both, that working through stages with him (patiently - you're sooo right MHN that women are much more patient than men, usually) will be the key to helping him adjust without relapses. This past weekend I only allowed my boyfriend to give Petey treats in his "place" (large pillow) after walks and to stand next to me when I fed Petey, not try to feed Petey himself. It woked well, the only growling he got from Petey was when he opened the dishwasher and accidentally caught Petey under the door, of course that made Petey uncomfortable, so the growl was expected, but no attack happened - hooray!!

The WOW is that this last few days, Petey seems to have completely returned to the dog I used to know... wants up on my lap and when I allow it shoves his head into my chest, follows me around everywhere I allow him to, wants to "dance" (hops around with me and lightly grabs my hand in his mouth to play) in the kitchen, brings me rawhide chew bones and drops them at my feet, lets me scratch him while he has a chicken chew treat in his mouth (that one is a BIG deal). He even sat on command (well, a couple of commands) when he was acting up at the vet (barking at other dogs). He even met another dog about his size in the park and after two barks sniffed and then went into "play position" - Success!!!!

Speaking of the vet, that's my question. I had made an appointment for him to have his nails trimmed Saturday afternoon (he hates it, so the groomer won't do it because he gets too upset), but they brought him back out telling me that he was too volatile and he tried to bite the technician due to all the commotion, as there were many other dogs in the back part of the office. Well, duh, the vet's tech know Petey and how excitable and fear-aggressive he is. They suggested that I give him a mild sedative when I bring him in to have his claws done, although they admitted that they can handle him when it's quiet (I usually bring him in first thing in the morning). I'm against sedation unless necessary, and I don't think sedating him every three weeks would be good for him. Your thoughts on this? I'd rather just try to muzzle him (since he lets me grab his snout, closing his mouth even when he's barking at another dog I think I can do it with some practice), not sedate him.

As always, I appreciate your advice, time and care for Petey and me!

Cynthia

[MaxHollyNoah]

Hi Cynthia!

WOW! Petey really made a huge progress!! It is so nice to hear all those nice episodes, including not biting your boyfriend even when trapped under the dishwasher door

As for sedating Petey for nail clipping, I personally think it's worth trying, especially when it's done by a vet technitian. My sister's dog also has fear aggression towards strangers and gets nervous at vets (he had bad experience as a puppy when treated his wound) so the vet requests he gets sedated before coming to the office. It is a 65 lbs dog so I would understand. Also, Holly, one of my dogs, got a really bad cut on her paw a couple of years ago and she somehow managed to lick the suture so obsessively to open it even with the largest Elizabeth collar and she had to be sewed again and again. Finally the vet prescribed a sedation med (I think it was Phenobarbital) and she was on it for a month or so until the suture healed up. She was still able to do all the things including walks and trainings, etc. but it did stop her obsession of licking the wound. My older dog that died at age of 15 yrs and 4 mos also took Phenobarbital for a few months in order to mitigate his epilepsy seizures. Since he was on the med for such a long time and also he was so old, we monitored his liver function periodically but just using the med at a lowest dose once in a while would not hurt Petey.

The alternative is of course wearing a muzzle but I am afraid he would get more panicky since he would be probably grabbed and beared down by a couple of people. Furthermore, I don't want him to get a bad impression on his vet visits and to hate them. My dogs love vet visits because I always take all 3 of them even if only one of them needs to be treated or needs to get shots and I always give them treats when it's done. Therefore, going to vets for me is such an easy routine but I hear a lot of stories about their dogs hating vets.

As he gets his nails trimmed a few times under a minor sedation, he might get used to it over time. Also a good idea is to touch his nails for no reason on a daily basis.

I am not a vet and have no medical knowledge so what I mentioned above is just from my experience. You can consult with your vet and find out more about the side effects of the sedation meds. I would be rather concerned about possible psychological side effects on Petey, who is getting so much better on trusting people

Keep us posted on his nail trimming.

[KOPcaroline]

Hey Cynthia,

Yay! Both you and Petey are phenomenal! Especially as a team! Its so awesome hearing he's doing so well. I think what you're doing with your boyfriend sounds like a really good start, and I'm sure Petey will continue making great progress with him!

On another note - hows the other dog doing (assuming you still have her?) Petey going well having company?

As far as the vet - I know a few people who have to give a light sedative before going to the vet and I haven't heard of side effects. Certainly it wouldn't be recommended if it were going to be detrimental to Petey. But, it is a personal choice. It seems a bit odd to jump to drugs immediately if the vets and techs know Petey is better when its quiet - they could always give you a call the day before and recommend maybe coming in before the actual clinic opens, or alternatively coming at the end of the day when there's less animals likely to be around. It may be worth discussing something along those lines if you don't like the idea of using medication.

On the other hand, what MHN said about the drugs maybe helping Petey learn that the vets isnt so bad is also true. A few trips using the sedative, then one without to test his reactions could be an idea to see how calm he is. You should also consider how easily you can actually medicate him - especially if you need to pop pills into him for a vet trip.

I'd say overall have another chat with your vet and feel these options out. As we've said multiple times, you know Petey best and what he would cope with best. All the best!

[MaxHollyNoah]

Sorry Cynthia and Caroline,

I might have confused you guys by the following sentence:


>I would be rather concerned about possible psychological side effects on Petey, who is getting so much better on trusting people.

What I meant was:

I am rather concerned about possible psychological impact by <avoiding sedatives> on Petey.

In other words, he would be forced to be touched and trimmed while he is sober and that might give a negative effect on his progress in trusting people.

Just wanted to explain what I meant. Thanks.

[Cgregoli]

Hi MHN and Caroline:

Thanks for your insights on sedation in dogs - you helped me look at the situation in a new light. I can now see that there may very well be a time and place when they're needed.

Perhaps I wasn't very clear, Petey had been to the same vet before to have his nails trimmed with little trouble - he doesn't like being wrapped up in the blanket when they hold him to trim his claws, so he squirms. The person who suggested sedation seemed to me to be coming at it from the perspective of "this would be easiest for them" not what seemed to me to be best for Petey - that's what bothered me. As it turned out, when I took him in I muzzled him this time (that was a whole new experience for me, but he'd been muzzled before - since I knew he wasn't fond of it, I got him used to it slowly by putting treats in it for him to take and getting him used to putting his nose all the way through to take a treat before I actually put it on him all the way - no trouble at all the day of the nail appointment). The technician who clipped his nails came out with him all smiles and told me "He's SO much better these days, and the muzzle really helped!" So apparently sedation is not needed in the morning when it's quiet.

Since he lets me handle his paws now, I talked to the vet tech about clipping Petey's claws myself, and she suggested that I start with just one claw and see how he does, then work up from there. I think I'll give that a try and perhaps that will be easiest of all for him. If it's a real problem, rather than lose his trust I'll just keep taking him to the vet.

And on the boyfriend front, this past weekend there was no growling, no attacking, and Petey even asked for scratches when my boyfriend and I were on the couch together, so I scratched him at the same time to make sure he knew his "safe" person was there - that worked out, we just kept the contact short as you both suggested a while ago, so he wanted more when we stopped. YAY Petey!!!

As always, thank you so much for your good advice!
Cynthia

[KOPcaroline]

Hey Cynthia,

Great thinking with the muzzle! I understand that the vet techs may want the job to be easier on them, but its awesome that you put Petey first - its what I would have done

And so glad to hear things with your boyfriend are getting easier! I hope it continues. Obviously you are doing everything right! Yay!

[Cgregoli]

Thanks, Caroline! I agree, the animal comes first, especially when it's a "convenience"for the human.

More good news, this was another weekend where there were no negative interactions between Petey and my boyfriend. In fact, there's a major positive breakthrough there - Petey took treats from my boyfriend's hand, then took his first few bites of dinner from his hand, and later took a pill coated in peanut butter from his fingers and continued to lick his fingers after the peanut butter was gone! Go Petey!!

Petey also rolled completely over to have me scratch his belly twice this weekend. I had to take him to the vet for another ear infection, so I muzzled him and was able to remove and replace the muzzle while at the vet's with no problem (gotta love those treats in the muzzle!). While he was on the exam table he even leaned on me and pushed his nose between my arm and side while we were waiting for the vet to come in, and was calm while the vet examined him. I've also been able to put drops in his ear, which I absolutely refused to try two months ago when he had his last ear infection.

I think I can safely say now that Petey has wholeheartedly given me his trust and is well on his way to getting back his trust for my boyfriend. He's been even BETTER than the dog I remember, since now he's more disciplined and calmer. I NEVER could have gotten him here without your and MHN's advice and support - thank you, thank you, THANK YOU both from both of us!!!!!!! I'm grateful to you both every time I look at Petey and think about what he was like when I brought him home to try to rehab him in August.

Cynthia

[MaxHollyNoah]

Hi Cynthia!

I am so happy to hear that Petey didn't need sedative medications at the vet for nail trimming, examination and treatment. You know him the best of anybody in the world so listening to yourself should work the best from now on. Your voice is there to protect Petey and I am sure there will be more times where you will need to make more difficult decisions down the road.

I am also very pleased to hear that your boyfriend has regained Petey's trust with your help. I am sure Petey is so happy since he now can trust both of you and he doesn't have to act up like he used to. Now that you can look back, you can see that he had no choices to attack against your guys when he was terrified

You guys did an AWESOME job to rewind the messed up relationship I would like to see more people try to work out problems with their dogs. I am a strong believer that no dogs are bad dogs to begin with. Most of the times, it is a result of our mistreating, miscommunicating, and misunderstanding.

Way to go Petey!

p.s. When you start clipping his nails yourself, start with just putting the clipper to his nail as you give him treats. Cut only the very tip of nails and be careful not to cut too short. My Holly used to be very relaxed and let me clip her nails until one time I cut one of her nails too short (she has black nails so it is hard to see) that it bleeded a little. That one mistake did it and she is now very reluctant to let me clip her nails

[Saint Crazy Lady]

I have read your posts from the first one and am left wishing more people could show the love, devotion and concern for their dog(s). You are awesome and an inspiration. God bless. SCL

[Cgregoli]

Hi MHN and Caroline:

Just a quick final update on Petey - we moved two weeks ago, and taking him to the new place first to sniff around and get used to it seemed to do the trick - no trouble with him at all! He still occasionally growls at my boyfriend (he barked once while in his crate), but other than that no issues - my boyfriend can leash him up and take him for walks. I'm sure he'll get over the growling as time goes by, we've used the time out in the covered crate when he's acted up and that's working well. No problems with Petey and Spencer being back together, as a matter of fact Petey seems very happy to be one place up in the pack now that Spencer is around. Petey has been asking for a lot of affection, but I've only been giving it to him on my terms, to reinforce alpha status and that has made him look to me even more, so he's continuing to be very well behaved with me and most of the time with my boyfriend unless startled.

Saint Crazy Lady, thank you for the kind words. MHN and Caroline, Thanks again for all your help and support, I can't imagine what
I would have done without you, but Petey might not be alive today without you.

Cynthia