I love dogs too, but

[Thonord]

I have behavior problems with a lot of people who also love dogs.
They dont belive in the Alpha dog etc. I do and ofcorse the arguments go on for ever.

OK, whats my point? Well I have been wrong about dogs and training many time in the past. I didn't know I was wrong, but reading about newer methods in training, like Clicker Training, has convinced me that I need to adopt a more open mind. So what about ppl who dont belive that dogs are pack animals and prefer a hierarchial existens? Are they on to something?

I have ordered a book from one of their gurus and I will read it, but I have seen his web site and I don't expect much.
I know I will learn something, one always learns something by listening to other ppls ideas.

Tom

[Annie]

Hi Thonord,
It´s really great to be reminded of other ideas, and looking at new ideas with an open mind...thankyou. I have been to a dog school that had some good points but was a bit 'army' like for me. I was also by another that was a bit to 'dog-whispering' for my liking but also had some interesting points. I often go back and read my sitstayfetch book, and have also ordered some other idea books for another perspective. I read articles from USA and England ( quite different ideas) and I´m living in Germany so here are also great tipps.......all I´m saying is that I am picking and choosing, watching, thinking...and some things work, some don´t but I am always questioning what I´m doing with my dog and why. Education is always beneficial....I just need to know what fits best with me and my dog. I totally understand what you´re saying about getting in arguments, but at least I can say that my mish-mash style seems to be working great with my dog.
Thanks again for opening up new ideas for me...I need to read a bit more about clicker training......let me know any new gems that you might discover. It´s not an exact science I believe and new stuff is coming out so fast
Annie

[Thonord]

Hi Annie. Thanks for your answer. Lots of wisdom there!

I'll let you know how I feel about
dogs not being pack animals (why should they be different from cats)

and why dogs should prefer democracy to hierarchy (they can't vote, can they?)

and that dogs are belivers in equality among the family members and pets (try to tell that to the zeta dog)

after reading the book.

Tom
Note to my self: " Remember! Keep an open mind! Keep an open mind - Dummkopf"

[Annie]

HA!
nice German!
Yeah an open mind is important in all things.....and every dog is different......my dog really needs the Alpha techniques ( for example) but she really needs, (as she is a nervous submissive \ potential aggressive dog) to sit with us on the sofa, to use every room in the house, to cuddle on the bed sometimes...and this combination rewards us with a best friend who is really in the family, but not so tough that she can treat us badly. From when she was a young dog I always gave her problems with her food. Continually patting her, moving her food bowl around, taking it away, pulling on her tail etc and now we have a 1 year old baby, who should know better....but when I´m not watching he will do all these things to her....and she has no problem with this. She knows that as a respected member she will be fed enough, but as a part of a family she must also tolerate stuff......
My philosophy is to mix it up and keep learning
Annie

[Thonord]

Hi.
I have read Barry Eatons book Dominance; Fact or fiction. And I am very dissapointed!

The only thing it has triggered is a thought about the domestic pack: "Perhaps the humans are not part of the pack"? Perhaps they are Super dogs and super cats and super horses, over and above, but not part of!
There must be a reason that they are so easily willing to obey us. Is it perhaps only because we are Food and Shelter Bringers, or is it maybe because they actually like us?

Tom

[debbieG]

Hi

I personally dont think there is a right or wrong method of training a dog as long as it is humane and it gets results.
I do believe in the alpha pack theory as i have implemented many techniques with my dog and they have worked a treat. At the end of the day a dog knows its a dog it doesnt see itself as a human and it just wants to be a dog.
Its us humans that have the problems - we think the dogs are humans in little fur coats!!!! so we try and humanise them. A dog to me needs a leader and as long as the leader gives the dog exercise, shelter, food, rules and boundaries and then some affection the dog will be happy.
Look at all the homeless people who have dogs. They walk at the side or behind them (not on a leash) for miles , they have shelter wherever their "leader" shelters and they get fed when their leader has found food and eaten! Those dogs dont run away or seem to have behaviour issues do they?
They love living in the "now" they dont care that their owner doesnt have a big house with acres of land and the fleet of cars that go with it they are happy that their leader is giving them everything they want.

But i also think that along with the pack theory you need reward based training too. Whether it is clicker training or food reward training.
There are lots of methods out there and i believe that picking out the bits you agree with and disregarding the rest should be the way to go. As long as you get results and its humane.
My god i have written an essay!!!!!!

[MaxHollyNoah]

Hi DebbieG.

I read your essay and I totally agree with you. We should try all kinds of methods in order to find the one that fits you and your dog the best.

I personally don't agree with the pack rules and Alpha techniques. I have had 4 dogs that lived and 2 of them still live with us peacefully and harmlessly. They are allowed on the couch and bed, they always eat before us, they go out the door first, we play tug with them and let them win sometimes, etc. We do everything the Alpha Techniques say don't but my dogs are very obedient and very nice to kids and babies.

They know they are different from us humans and they know they should obey even to kids and should not hurt them. They don't need to be told repeatedly they are the bottom of the pack (I don't think dogs don't understand why we are implementing those pack rules anyway). They have choices to do differently but they choose the way they are trained to, not because they are forced to. This is a big difference. Dogs can choose to a certain behaviors among all kinds of behaviors. That is the biggest advantage of training using rewards. For example, when I take my dogs for walk, I let them go out the door first but I don't let my dogs get out the car until I tell them to do so because of their safety. When I open the car door, they can jump out the car if they want to but they don't because they choose not to. Do they understand it is unsafe to jump out? I don't think so. But they know it is better to listen to my mom (me) because she told us not to.

We, humans, don't need to be the Alpha, or pack leader. If you and your dog can build a relationship based on trust and confidence, they listen to you, they never be aggressive to you. At the end of the day, they know they are well fed, well loved, well treated here so why do they need to make us an enemies? It is us humans who should think again why we treat our best friends as the worst enemies?

[debbieG]

Hi Maxhollynoah

Then you are very lucky to have dogs that behave well

My dog is allowed on the Sofa so its not that i follow all the rules!
I have implemented a few of the Alpha pack theory rules because we had tried most other methods and failed, the two main ones being when entering the house after being out and when we ate.

I must admit too that this is the first dog i have had that has been hard to train! But he is also my first boxer.

"They don't need to be told repeatedly they are the bottom of the pack (I don't think dogs don't understand why we are implementing those pack rules anyway)."
I totally disagree with this quote. Kaiser isnt TOLD repeatedly he is the bottom of the pack as this is maybe what a lot of people think alpha theory is but my translation of it is very different. There is and always will be rules and boundaries. These have to be set whether we are talking dogs or children. My son has rules and boundaries or else he would be running wild and getting into trouble because these are set and in place he respects me and he knows that if he did wrong that would be disrespecting me.
Maybe dogs dont understand why we are implementing these rules but if it works then does it really matter? they probably dont understand why we sit and watch the TV etc etc but it doesnt bother them. We also have to understand that peoples rules and boundaries are going to be different too, some people think its ok for their dog to be on the sofa and bed and their children have shoes on while laying on a sofa, others think it is an absolute no no area for a dog and the children shouldnt wear shoes. Again each person has to set the rules according to what they are willing to accept and not accept. This doesnt make their way wrong or right as both ways are not inhumane.

"They have choices to do differently but they choose the way they are trained to, not because they are forced to"
I think this quote is a little strong. I would never force my dog to do anything. A lot of the alpha rules arent about force its just altering the way we act with the dogs. Anybody that has to use force shouldnt be using the method they have chosen. Kaiser was a very dominant dog because we had let him become that way (reating him like a baby). So with a few changes using the pack theory techniques we have changed him and he is very happy and content now - apart from strangers and children! This is something i will have to work on A LOT!

If your dogs are well behaved without using any of these methods then thats great. Certainly my other dogs never needed it but this one did. Like i say each dog is different and each dog will take better to one form of training than another.
Kaiser wouldnt give clicker training a second look in. He just wasnt and still isnt interested in it at all, BUT i do believe in that training method as i have seen it work on other dogs.


Thats my thought on the alpha method anyway!!! i dont see it as forceful i just see rules and boundaries being set. A lot of people think its cruel or degrading to the dog but i really really cant see it that way at all, apart from some points i.e people that put their dogs on their backs in a submissve role i think that is going a little too far BUT maybe i dont fully understand the reason for it.

I think training a dog to dance to music is totally absurd whereas others think its great. I dont believe in using ANY animals for amusement but thats my opinion!

[MaxHollyNoah]

Hi debbieG,

Thank you for your comment. I am very interested in dog training and dog behavior correction methods so I will appreciate comments from a lot of people.

As I said at the beginning of my last message "We should try all kinds of methods in order to find the one that fits you and your dog the best", there is no almighty method or magic wand because, as you said, each dog is different and each owner has different rules, boundaries and expectations.

Yes, my dogs are very nice dogs, not perfect but close to perfect to me, maybe because my expectations are not as too high, compared to some owners. I see and treat my dogs as dogs, not as wolves, nor human kids (I never raised wolves but I have raised 3 kids so I know how it is).

What I treasure the best with my dogs is our relationship. That is why I personally don't agree with the Alpha techniques. I think I have established a very good relationship with my dogs, using positive reinforcement training. My dogs are rescued border collie mixes so I have no idea what kind of socialization they had when they were puppies. In fact, Holly had a separation anxiety and was scared of men and sticks. Noah is very good with people but gets afraid of big dogs and shows some fear aggression. We are working on it.

Considering their not so happy puppyhood and possible distrust to people, they have grown to be very happy and gentle dogs. They listen to me since they trust me. They now let anybody take their food away, look into their mouth, touch their paws, etc. because they have developed trust to people.

I never used the Alpha techniques but I read the book and found it not my cup of tea. I want my dogs to be on the couch with me, I want to cuddle up with them, I want to enjoy my meals without worrying they must be hungry, I would hate to move my dogs that are sleeping/lying down in my way, I would rather walk around them, I want to greet my dogs after being gone to work for 9-10 hrs (my husband works from home so they are not alone during the day), etc. This is my own preference and my belief. If dogs are given appropriate socialization and if they have self-confidence through positive trainings, you will be able to avoid most of the problems. Aggression to its own owner is not a dog's fault. The owner failed to establish a trust-based relationship with the dog.

My dogs always look at me with excitement in their eyes, asking "what's next, Mama?" They still need, and keep needing trainings in some areas but it is fun to train them and see how they are improving.

debbieG, you said "the two main ones being when entering the house after being out and when we ate". I don't understand what you mean by 1) when entering the house after being out but I know what you mean by 2) when we ate.

Let me make a suggestion on 2). Train him "on your bed" command using treats. This is a very handy command. Bring out a mat or blanket and put it on the floor. Bring your dog onto it and have him sit and down, and reward. Repeat this and introduce a command "on your bed". Make it longer and longer. Have him "on your bed" while you eat something in front of him. When you finish eating, tell him "all done" and give him a treat.

When he masters this, he would be eventually able to stay on his bed until you finish your meal and tell him "all done". My dogs can wait for good one hour when we have company. However, as I said, we always feed them first.

I hope this will work for Kaiser. It will take time (maybe a few weeks) but be patient, because you will have the benefit for years!!

[Annie]

Hi there all!
just logging on to throw my 2 cents in the pot....
My dog Joey is or was quite a nervous dog and seemed to be a bit too aggressive for my liking....I had a new baby when Joey was 3 months old, and I was a bit concerned. I had always treated her as a dog and made a special effort to treat her as a toddler may treat her.During her meals I would sometimes pull her tail a little, lift up her feet while she was eating, move her food bowl around etc etc and seeing as I started when she was young, she has absolutely no problem now when the toddler 'escapes' and bothers her. I try to respect her space, but I am not always quick enough and the baby is now learning that she shouldn´t bother Joey when she eats.

She was also always asked to behave in a way that complimented our family. Not begging, even at parties, to get out of the way of my feet as I´m walking etc and she was never allowed on the bed as the baby was there.But, being a bit of an insecure dog, she is welcome to join us on the sofa to watch TV, she can 'drive-the-car' from the front seat when I´m shopping and she may choose where she sleeps.
After reading the Alpha Techniques, I realised that I was following already many of the techniques. I was too busy getting the families dinner on the table and she could wait etc.I was able to choose out a few more, like she can now move out of my way when she is sleeping...why not? I`m often carrying babies and things and she does tend to lie right across the door. If she doesn´t want to be disturbed...well, she can sleep at the wall?
What I`m trying to say is that I am quite tough on her, but it so much a part of our relationship that is is normal. I do not have to 'think' about treating her 'badly' ( as some people think) but she sould be behaving in a way that means I can take her with me everywhere. We go in Libraries, shops, festivals, BBQ`s and I am very haapy with her behaviour, and just the same as with my toddler, I am often asking her not to wander away, to stay with me, to not touch things etc. I don´t believe she needs to be trained in every new situation, but I have set up a style that she needs to follow my lead in how to behave and have good manners in new situations.
She is now one and a half, and I am pleased to see that her natural aggression ( possibly from fear) has dropped right away, her fear of new situations has improved, her tolerance for babies and kids is going great. OK, so she´s getting older, and calmer, but we have standards in our house ( Totally agreeing with DebbieG and it isn´t even in my thoughts that I am the pack leader....I am the house leader, I know how to buy the food, how to work the doors, where to find the frisbee so why shouldn´t she watch me and follow my lead? I´m very entertaining for her and I believe her best friend. Some of my other best friends aren´t allowed on my bed either
I am still jealous with people whos dogs don´t bark, scratch the door, chew the baby Jesus in the crib scene etc and they seem to have no need for these techniques....but after talking to them, they have their own problems and tolerance levels and my beautiful Joey just seemed to need a bit more boarders to feel secure.
OH...and she doesn´t know how to dance or scateboard or play dead...her job is to hang out with us and enjoy the fine sunshine....
It´s a dogs life....but it´s my house and rules.
I´m enjoying the discussions that are happening here. It´s great to hear problems and ideas tossed around.
waiting for more...
Annie